Just found this user group. Hello!

A forum for discussing topics of particular interest to those running MegaSquirt in Australia and New Zealand, including parts sources, group buys, etc.
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bluehaze
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Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by bluehaze » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:19 am

Hi All
I've only just discovered we have a special user group. Very nice. I've just breathed life into a 202 blacky in my FB sedan running a version 3 board doing fuel and spark. Must say, I'm pretty chuffed, been just tuning in the shed for stioc AFR along the no-load line of the map, have yet to do some road tuning. Got her out of the shed for the first time (Been a 6 year project) and went for a spin up and down my street. Not too shabby. At this stage where I'm doing all the tests for the engineer, then RWC, then to do the slow dancing with VicRoads (don't ya just love going to RTA/VicRoads/etc? and waiting...?) to finally get some plates!
Two questions, though;

1. Anyone know any Dyno blokes an Melbourne's east who are familiar with MS? And is dyno tuning the MS system worth the expense?

2. Can I get a good tune with a narrow band sensor (I'm not after big herbs, running a stock 3.3 with stock cam- the car will be a daily drive for the missus).
If I set a flat (14.7) AFR table, and tune for that, will this be good enough?
FB Holden 3.3 Blacky running MS V3 fuel and ignition.

long283
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by long283 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:28 pm

Hi Bluehaze,

I have a Chev v8 running with an MS2 but also have a blue202 motor running with a Haltech.

The narrowband oxygen sensor will help you to tune your cruise settings but a wideband will allow you to tune the rest of your fuel-map whilst seeing if you are going dangerously lean or too rich. Techedge is company based in Canberra and have a reasonably priced Wideband kit and indicator.

If you have a good oxygen sensor you will be able to drive around with auto-tune on or data-logging, and start to clean up your fuel-map that way.
Spending a little time tuning will also allow you to become familiar with the software and then a good dyno-operator will be able to monitor the dyno/car/oxygen sensor (they will have one connected to their dyno) and tell you what changes to make to the fuel map (increase/decrease).

Weigh up your options;
* If you need the car running well before going for rego - spend the time on the dyno. It is a lot safer to tune on a dyno than driving on the road.
* If the tune is close - then you can use auto-tune/dat-logging to improve the fuel-map.
* If you or a friend is familiar with the software - have them/yourself tune whilst the other person drives or on the dyno.

The 202 with the VK manifold is a nice torquey engine and will make a great daily driver. Getting the timing right will make a big difference. Engines will still run with the fuel-map in a close enough setting. Once the engine is running then you can gradually improve the tune to get better power/economy.

Good luck with the project.

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bluehaze
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Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by bluehaze » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:01 am

Thanks for the reply Long283
It's nice to hear someone else who has tackled the 3.3. I spoke to a local dyno bloke who told me prices start at $600, I thanked him for his time and wished him well. So I lashed out on a LC-1 with a gauge (not one of those digital guages-too many flashing lights!) instead got an analogue gauge which fits in with the deco in the FB (already got Speco for temp and oil). Got a permit from VicRoads to gather weighbridge and EPA noise certificate. Took the opportunity to do laps around the block (about 4 Km) and log the results. First time around involved lots of misses and carry-on (especially at loads). Logs said a bit lean-must be lean mis-fires, so I richen up a bit at the relevent points and have another go. After about 5 laps, it's pretty good. Still room to improve, but still want to see how close I get before letting VEAL have a go for me. I'm still getting the odd lean spike on the O2 feedback, especially at higher RPMs. I'm not losing any sleep over this, as the misses are all but gone, and the plugs are nice and clean.

PS Failed the noise test (99dB, Should be under 96) - Not happy Jan! :cry:
FB Holden 3.3 Blacky running MS V3 fuel and ignition.

long283
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Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by long283 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:37 pm

That's a good start.

The wideband makes tuning so much easier.
Once you are able to go for a nice long drive you can log a lot of data and really clean up the fuel map. If you've got a service manual for the 3.3 EFi engine you might find the details of the ignition curve they used. Getting the timing right can help reduce the noise emissions but +3dB is a lot on a log scale.
* A lean speak on an 02 sensor can also be caused by a miss fire.

If you were interested in the 3.3 in my LC here's some pics;
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p464 ... ne_Bay.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p464 ... 12-077.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p464 ... 12-074.jpg
The black-motor is painted red to confuse people (I previously had a 173ci red-motor painted Ford blue).

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bluehaze
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Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by bluehaze » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:21 am

Hey Long283
My first two cars were LC's. I love the old Torries. I was on the second one when I met my wife twenty years ago. She hated it and I still tease her by saying the next project will be a nice LC orLJ with a nice hot 202 with EFI. We do however like the FB/EK's. My other toy is an original EK.
Decided the logs were starting to look better, and the drive quality was improving, especially after improving my AE. so I let VEAL have a good go for about 20 minute up and down hills and some flat bits as well. I avoided moving quickly through the rev/map ranges quickly, trying to hold the dot in the same area for awhile. Results,-wow! I'm impressed. Cruising smoothly, lane change and a gentle lean on the throttle and she's got more poke (and smoother) than when I put the X2 carbies on the 202 in the old Torry way back when. And that's after only 20 minutes! Got a hot dog installed in the back and she's down to 88dB. So now I'm ready for final engineer inspection. Might sneak out for as pulls more tuning runs over the week end.
FB Holden 3.3 Blacky running MS V3 fuel and ignition.

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bluehaze
MegaSquirt Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by bluehaze » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:40 pm

Here's mine.
engine bay.JPG
(85.74 KiB) Not downloaded yet
FB Holden 3.3 Blacky running MS V3 fuel and ignition.

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wagon
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Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:10 am
Location: Toowoomba, QLD, Australia

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by wagon » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:21 pm

Welcome, bluehaze!

Old motors with efi are the goods!
1984 Ford Falcon 250ci inline 6 MS'd of course!

Now improved the way Ford should have built it with a 4speed automatic.

Also with 3.45 LSD for added goodness.

If you are hitting your head up against a wall it always feels better when you stop.

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bluehaze
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Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by bluehaze » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:41 am

I reckon it's pretty cool to be tuning an FB Holden with a laptop!
FB Holden 3.3 Blacky running MS V3 fuel and ignition.

rallyrs
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Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:24 am

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by rallyrs » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:30 pm

Bluey, your making me feel bad. Peeking out from under piles of boxes in the back of my shed is an ek ute which hasnt moved for 11+ years. Stripped it 17 odd years ago and replaced most of the rot, since then moved houses a couple of times, bred 4 hungry mouths & found driving sideways on the dirt is way to much fun.
My youngest bloke is trying to gee me up to dig it out and get it going for his 1st road car after I pointed one out at a show the other day. He commented he has never seen forward of the rear arches of mine. :-((

No one else mentioned it, when tuning 14.7 (petrol) is your economy target. A narrow band is OK for this. The wideband is better because you can nail the acceleration values of 12:1 power and 13:1 load/torque values better (or is this 13.5:1).

The dyno man sound a bit rich. If your happy with your familiarity with tuning, try and find one that charges by the hour. I had the fuel and ignition maps sorted in the esky in just over an hour, including fiddling the cam timing. I f I recall it cost me about $150, it was 3 years ago now. I played with the PC from the passenger seat because the operator hadnt seen an MS before. He operated the accelerator and the dyno and told me if he wanted more or less juice.

Well worth it for me, I couldnt get a good tune running around the track, way to bumpy, couldnt hold a constant accelerator position. And it got a bit scary trying to hit all the limits.
MS2 extra, gsxr600 TB, Falcon EF vr 36:1, V6 commodore coils

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bluehaze
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Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Just found this user group. Hello!

Post by bluehaze » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:14 pm

Hi Rallyrs
Thanks for your advice. I have been having fun using the WB unit and watching the gauge while driving. The VEAL function seems to work pretty well as far as getting the car running well. My concern is getting the timing curve right. This is where I plan to utilize the services of a dyno. At the moment, I've got a curve which is approximately like the original spec, minus a couple of degrees, just to be on the safe side. Unfortunately the 202 I spent so much time and money on is no good. Well it's a fine motor, just that when I went to register the car last week, I was told the motor was stolen! To say I was disappointed would be under stating things a tad. Anyhow, rather than wait God-knows how long to get the motor cleared by the police, I decided to pull it out and installed a nice rebuilt 186 with flat top pistons, all set for the 12 port head. So a week later, and she's up and fairly well tuned with an injected 186. Smoother than the 202 and almost as much poke. Back to Vicroads this week to get rego.
The FB project started 6 years ago, full rebuild, bare metal, rotisserie, the whole bit.
I see you are of the blue oval persuasion, that's ok, tolerance and all that :) Hope you can get your old Holden out of storage and you can embark on a bit of a "father-son" project.
FB Holden 3.3 Blacky running MS V3 fuel and ignition.

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